Hashimoto’s — Bigger Than Diabetes?

Perhaps, perhaps not, but it’s going to be attracting a lot of media attention in the next decade.  People aren’t dying of Hashimoto’s thyroiditis. Not directly, anyway. They simply live increasingly unpleasant lives without knowing why. But it doesn’t have to be that way.

Most of those who are aware of the ‘disease’ called Hashimoto’s perceive it as a thyroid disorder. This unclear thinking extends to most physicians. Hashimoto’s is an autoimmune disorder in which the body’s hypersensitive and thoroughly confused immune system is attacking and destroying thyroid tissue. In a nutshell, successful management of Hashimoto’s treats the immune system, not the thyroid.


We’ve Come a Long Way, Broda Barnes

Recently I revisited Dr. Broda Barnes’ classic summation of his life’s work, Hypothyroidism: the Unsuspected Illness, published in 1976. Not having opened the book in fifteen years, I was amazed at how my own understanding of the thyroid has shifted since my first reading.

On the one hand, much of Barnes’ pioneering work on low thyroid function now seems quaint and outdated, relative to the cutting edge of perceiving and treating a disorder which is just the tip of the autoimmune iceberg.

On the other hand, the vast majority of physicians still haven’t even attained Barnes’ level of understanding thyroid dysfunction. Conventional medicine’s treatment of thyroid hypo-function remains in the dark ages, confined to simplistic pharmaceutical protocols which routinely fail to address the cause of these disorders — or even the symptomatology of the client! This approach does nothing but normalize irrelevant lab numbers, and fill the coffers of Big Pharma.

Thyroid dysfunction, in conventional medicine, is a simple, black and white diagnosis: hyper or hypo. Treatment is similarly adolescent. Thyroid hyper-function elicits irradiation of the gland (to ‘kill’ it) with radioactive iodine or surgical removal (somewhat like trying to scrape chewing gum off the bottom of one’s shoe). Those with hypo-function get a lifetime supply of Synthroid or one of the other synthetic, and, therefore patentable, imitations of thyroid hormones. Ironically, the hyper-function patient will receive the same drugs, since they no longer have a functioning thyroid gland.

Endocrine function is anything but a simple affair. Most often these diagnoses are made by utilizing lab information completely insufficient to make an accurate diagnosis of what’s really happening to the thyroid. Understanding the thyroid and its many complex relationships within one’s constitution is a formidable undertaking for the sincere physician. Dr. Datis Kharrazian, with whom I studied for several years, mines the biochemical depths of these relationships and has identified no less than twenty-two distinct patterns of disharmony in the thyroid — and that doesn’t even include Oriental medicine’s diagnoses.

The most common of the under-diagnosed manifestations of hypothyroidsim is Hashimoto’s disease.  Peer reviewed literature states that, of the 27 million Americans who have thyroid hypo-function, well over half actually have undiagnosed Hashimoto’s. Broda Barnes’ perception of thyroid disease in this country suggests that even these numbers are seriously understated.  My own observations are in alignment with what Dr. Barnes saw throughout his professional life.


The Face of Hashimoto’s

So, what does it mean that millions of people are un-diagnosed or mis-diagnosed?  Why should we be concerned that conventional medicine is doing nothing more for these individuals than normalizing their TSH labs — causes and symptoms be damned?

The most revealing answers would undoubtedly come from an individual who has been a victim of the ‘most advanced health care on the planet’.  Since Hashimoto’s disproportionately affects females, let’s ask ‘Terry’, whose experience is fairly representative.

Terry’s thyroid peroxidase antibodies (TPO) were over 2000 (high normal is 25.5) when she arrived in my care less than two months ago.  44 years old, she had already suffered years of abuse at the hands of conventional medicine.  She recognized the symptoms of Hashimoto’s (although not by name) when she was in college.  She was always depressed and tired.  Her 60″ frame carried 109 pounds.

Fifteen years later, she weighed 230 pounds, and had experienced a ruptured ovarian cyst, four laparoscopies, diabetes, ruptured vertebral discs, a miscarriage and two premature childbirths, a hysterectomy, a divorce, and attempted suicide.  Her good doctors had her on Synthroid and anti-depressants, and had administered electro-shock treatment before she made it to me with a list of current symptoms including obesity, psoriasis, fatigue, headaches, blurred vision, irritability, joint pain, skin lesions, muscle pain and weakness, easily overwhelmed, frustrated — all steeped in a murky broth of brain fog.

Any astute doctor of Oriental medicine will recognize from this list familiar patterns which suggest the likelihood of autoimmune disorders, without the need to measure TPO.  Yet we took advantage of extensive, meaningful, lab work: blood, urine, saliva for adrenal stress markers, stool for an obvious gut-centered disharmony, as well as anti-pancreatic islet cell antibodies and immune studies to determine TH1/TH2 dominance.  This may sound like a lot — and it is — but for someone trained in seeing the big picture, these results paint a cohesive, multi-dimensional panorama of this woman’s current condition, as well as her earlier life and how she got here.  More importantly, this image clearly indicates how to back out of her current condition.

I could easily write several blogs about this process, but let’s just say that less than two months after she walked in the door, the inflammation evident throughout her constitution has subsided to nearly nothing, she has lost around 20 lbs., the psoriasis is nearly gone, her pain level and headaches are no longer constant companions, she has much more energy, and she thinks more clearly than I do!  This has been accomplished without drugs, and I’ve done nothing to her thyroid. And the next blood panel we run will reveal a TPO close to normal.

Are we done?  Not even close.  But we’re well on our way.  And Terry and her family have their lives back (for the first six weeks, she had to be driven to her appointments, accompanied to the office by her mother and husband — now she drives alone).

Will the rest of her journey be a slam-dunk?  Highly unlikely.  We’ll each learn much along the way, but, if she continues treatment she will achieve a remarkably high level of good health, enabling her to enjoy what lies ahead and cope with the inevitable challenges that show up.


Oriental Medicine and Hashimoto’s

What I most enjoy about Datis is that while he is a brilliant chiropractor, working within the vernacular of bio-chemistry, he thinks like a doctor of Oriental medicine.  He truly does see the causes of thyroid disorder as ‘patterns of disharmony’.  I’ve suggested to him that a broader understanding of Oriental medicine would be advantageous to him, if for no other reason than avoiding re-inventing the wheel.  He shrugs it off and says, “Oh, I’ll leave that to you guys.”  Meaning Doctors of Oriental Medicine.  And I have taken the challenge seriously.

Treating Hashimoto’s at this level requires using every scrap of the tiny bit of scientific research which exists on herbal medicines and the immune system.  Fortunately for DOMs, there is more research on Chinese herbal medicine than there is on western herbs (it’s just in Chinese…).  Even more importantly, a two thousand year old database of the herbs’ energetic nature is already part of our vernacular as well.  This makes pioneering work more effortless to accomplish when, for example, the physician is attempting to ‘tonify’ the immune system’s TH1 components in a client whose TH2 components have gone berserk.  It’s so much easier to perceive what is really happening to the entire ecology than having to rely on the limited perspective of a handful of scientific studies for guidance.

One autoimmune disorder often begets another, which is why I tested Terry’s antipancreatic islet cells.  And indeed, those antibodies were high.  This means that her immune system is already also attacking the pancreas, as well as the thyroid.  If we don’t solidly reverse the factors which have broken down Terry’s primary immune barriers — the brain barrier, the skin, the lungs, and gut — and intelligently manage her immune system, this trend will continue, and the cascade effect will be exceedingly unpleasant.  I trust that she will make the required choices to avoid that fate.  From my perspective, the game is now such that compromise, poor choices, and mediocre health care are no longer options.

Millions of Americans are in a similar situation, and the vast majority not only have no idea what is happening to them, they don’t know anyone who can help them.  And while it’s absolutely true that many of the solutions are composed of sheer common sense, I honestly don’t see much evidence of that — in medicine or in our culture.

But we will be hearing more about Hashimoto’s.  Those suffering from it are looking hard for solutions, and there are an increasing number of us capable of giving them what they’re looking for.


PostScript: Winter Solstice 2013

There are now two more discussions of the Hashimoto’s phenomenon on this site. Do yourself a big favor and don’t leave without reading even more important considerations of Hashimoto’s at both Hashimoto’s, Life-Expectancy, & Life Purpose and The “Hashimoto’s Syndrome”. Thanks!




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19 thoughts on “Hashimoto’s — Bigger Than Diabetes?

  1. Speaking of thyroid irradiation, the New York Times’ article, “Radiation Differs for Humans and Pets” http://www.nytimes.com/2010/12/09/health/policy/09radiation.html?partner=rss&emc=rss reveals some strange double standards in recommendations for human versus animal recipients of thyroid radiation treatment.

    Representative Edward J. Markey, Democrat of Massachusetts, finds the difference in Nuclear Regulatory Commission recommendations for humans and animals a little disconcerting. Human guidelines are far more lax than those for animals. Human recipients of radioactive drugs are allowed to go straight home and expose their loved ones and colleagues, while animals must be quarantined for two to five days before being sent home — even though the dose they receive is 90-98% smaller than that received by humans.

    Explanations offered by a few veterinarians don’t hold water for Representative Markey. Nor do they for me…

  2. Nicole Dixon Davis November 12, 2011 — 2:39 pm

    Thanks for the interesting insightful article. Yes, I have Hashimoto’s and am looking for answers:)

    1. You’re welcome Nicole. Have you found a health care professional who can help?

      1. I haven’t found any good treatment and would love some advice on finding some!

        1. Yes, Rachel, I can hear the frustration in your words. And you’re not alone.

          The first question I’d want to ask is, where do you live? Are you able or willing to travel?

          Truthfully, there are only a handful of practitioners capable of seeing good results in Hashimoto’s clients. And there are parts of the country which could be described as high level health care deserts. If you’d like to continue this conversation, perhaps you’d be more comfortable doing so via email. Let me know if you’d like that.

          1. On here is fine, because I am having so much trouble finding info myself I think its important that other people be able to see our conversation! I live in broken arrow, oklahoma. I am very near to tulsa. I could do very short travel, but I have to be honest when I say I can’t afford expensive treatments. I do not have medical insurance, I am being treated at an indian clinic right now.

          2. I hope readers appreciate your generosity, Rachel, in sharing our conversation with them.

            Surely readers understand that I can’t tell them how to treat their Hashimoto’s. That would require teaching everything I know about Oriental medicine, as well as cutting edge Western approaches, both of which are essentially unknown in the medical community. I’ve spent decades getting to this point. More to the point, I treat individuals, not a condition. Your Hashimoto’s will look and behave differently than someone else’s — and must be treated accordingly.

            If I read your last comment correctly, it sounds as if receiving the care you need is unavailable to you. You’re in a community where even good conventional medicine may be sketchy. Although you’re a ten hours’ drive from Albuquerque, traveling here for treatment doesn’t seem to be an option due to finances. I get the impression that if you lived right here in town, treatment from me may not be something you could do. Please correct me if I’m misinterpreting your message.

            Even if the rather pricey lab tests for assessing what the immune system is doing — which players are overreacting, and which ones need help — even if these were not an important part of the Hashimoto’s picture and its treatment, there is a huge amount of redirection which needs to be orchestrated to bring the immune system to a state of peaceful stability. As I’m sure you know, an overamped immune system doesn’t usually stop with the thyroid. Unmanaged, it looks for other prey. The pancreas is often the next target. And on and on. All these things are determined by one’s constitutional tendencies, as well as the choices (dietary, emotional, where we put our attention) we make throughout the day. Before we’ve even gotten into medicine, these are the origin and perpetuating factors causing dis-ease.

            Identifying and correcting counterproductive choices is a huge and ongoing task. Practitioners with the skill and willingness to offer that level of treatment are rare — and yes, usually expensive. (Or are they? When I hear what people are spending on a pet’s health care, on remodeling the house, on this year’s second vacation, I’m a little puzzled when I’m told they can’t afford good health care for themselves.) And there are many who truly cannot afford what they need.

            Here’s what I would recommend for someone in your situation. Datis Kharrazian is a brilliant thinker whose attention has been given to Hashimoto’s. He’s a chiropractic physician by license and a creative student of human biochemistry. He’s probably the leading clinician treating Hashimoto’s. I’ve been studying with Datis since 2002, and he always amazes me with his creativity. His book, Why Do I Still Have Thyroid Symptoms, When My Lab Tests Are Normal? is a valuable primer for anyone looking for help with this condition. If you don’t already have a copy, I highly recommend you get one and thoroughly assimilate it.

            Will it manage your condition for you? I’m afraid not. But here’s what I’d look for in a practitioner who can actually help you:
            1. Start by finding someone who has studied with Datis.
            2. After that, a Doctor of Oriental Medicine, who practices the full scope of the medicine would be high on my wish list of qualifications. As advanced as it is, what Datis teaches is in its infancy. The amount of research available to Westerners on natural substances to manipulate the immune system is disappointingly limited. Since many of those substances are from the Chinese pharmacopeia, a talented Doctor of Oriental Medicine can begin to perceive the relationships and integrate this research with the deep understanding of Oriental principles. That’s a huge advantage.
            3. Steer clear of someone who wants to treat the thyroid. The thyroid is not the problem — it’s the victim. The immune system itself and other extenuating factors must be treated in Hashimoto’s.

            Wouldn’t it be sweet if someone could just tell you, “Oh yes, Rachel, just take this and this, maybe some of that”, and all would be well? Very little in life is that simple. Complex autoimmune disorders are not something that can be managed or even understood over the internet. But I hope the information here will give you some direction toward the level of resolution you’re destined for.

            For, you, Rachel, and all the other readers looking for answers: Seek and keep seeking! Don’t settle for second rate care.

  3. PS: I don’t have medical insurance either.

    If you’re paying for health insurance, you probably can’t afford health ‘care’.

  4. I am willing to pay for help, don’t misunderstand. I have four children and although things get tight I need to be functional to properly care for them. I’m not remodeling or anything of that nature. I do receive free health care through the indians, and I do have to say I see an np and she has been wonderful and understanding, I just don’t think many people have knowledge on this disease. She is however giving me some thyroid hormone hoping that it will relieve symptoms with no result. She is also giving me b-12 injections monthly, which I am going to ask her to increase. The pain that comes and goes and headaches and muscle pain is just unbearable and depressing. There isn’t much on these symptoms, yet I have absolutely been tested for everything under the sun and it has to be the hashimoto’s. Is there someone in the tulsa area? I am definately willing to give it a try, and yet understand I can’t go once and be magically cured. My whole self needs medicine, I want help. I know I make bad eating decisions, but I’m not sure what is best for me. please help!

    1. “…I have absolutely been tested for everything under the sun and it has to be the hashimoto’s.”

      This remark brings up some questions which haven’t been answered, Rachel. What was your TPO the last time it was tested? And what do your other thyroid markers read?

      There are some dangerous pitfalls in believing that all possibilities have been examined.

      • First of all, I can assure you, they have not.
      • Secondly, the testing has been done through the lens of a pretty limited paradigm. You’re most likely suffering from a functional disorder, and it may well be Hashimoto’s. The problem is that Hashimoto’s is a functional disorder, and conventional medicine knows almost nothing about functional disorders. They’re trained in pathology, test for pathology, and look for pathology. They’re not trained to recognize a functional disorder, and they generally can’t treat one. So, while they may or may not have ascertained that you have Hashimoto’s, they’re not equipped to recognize other problems which may have initiated the Hashimoto’s or may be exacerbating it.
        What’s bringing this country’s health to its knees are functional disorders, not pathology.
      • And thirdly, it sets in stone a belief that nothing exists which can help you — which is unlikely, let alone productive to progress. Yet I hear people repeat this mantra to themselves over and over.

      I’m sure your nurse practitioner is a wonderful person, as many in mainstream medicine are. And B-12 may give you some relief. But neither it nor the thyroid are treating the Hashimoto’s.

      You end your reply with an understandable plea for help, Rachel. In my first response to you, I did my best to explain that meaningful testing and adequate treatment of Hashimoto’s require quite a bit of time and expense. Diagnosing and managing functional disorders require lots of communication, and cannot be accomplished without face-to-face contact.

      If that’s something you’d like to pursue with me, please visit my website. Information on becoming a client is explained there at Becoming a Client. If it’s something you can do, please contact me, and we can discuss the best way to proceed.

      Regardless, I very much encourage you to pursue the recommendations I outlined in my previous response. That’s the best help I can offer from a distance.

      You’re absolutely correct, Rachel, in that your “whole self needs medicine…”. Persevere.

      1. I am reading the book you suggested. All of the thyroid tests are within the “functional” ranges. I m, however eating gluten and had been on atkins before and know I felt lots better! I went to the site on finding someone in my area and it said to send an email to another place, but my email was returned saying it didn’t exist. I am so frusterated and while reading the book am feeling as if it may be to late for me. My tsh had not been bad until she started medicating me, and I was tested just last week and was at. 5.111 so she upped me to 0.75 levothyroxine. I’m sad now that I could have been helped before, but now I may be ruined! I really need to find the care you offer closer to me! I can travel some, but not much. I looked at your site and didn’t find the prices to bad, just a strch in the begining that I’m assuming would be smaller after the innicial visit. Is there anywhere else to look for a prctictioner in my area? Sincerely, Rachel

        1. Rachel, the two most primary influences on our experience are attention and attitude. They have determined how we got where we are, and they will determine where we go next. With the attitude you portray in your comment, it would be amazing that you can get out of bed in the morning! Ninety percent of our karma is simply the result of incorrect thinking.

          You now have in your hands the best patient resource on Hashimoto’s. From it you have already identified an important component of improving your condition, and there are many more to be found there. Yet you’ve decided you are ‘ruined’, ‘it’s too late’. If you allow your attention and attitude to drag you into the ditch like that, not much is going to change. You are the creator. If you don’t like something you’re experiencing, remember that you created it, and only you can ‘uncreate’ (or ‘outcreate’) it.

          If you read the page of my website which discusses fees, you know that I first ask for a Case Review to determine whether or not to take on a client. What do you suppose are the most important criteria I use in reviewing a case?

          • The difficulty of a client’s condition (the dreaded ‘pre-existing’ condition)? No. All my clients have pre-existing conditions. That’s the reason for helping them.
          • The number of doctors they’ve seen who could not correct their condition? No. The more they’ve seen, the better I like it. It’s a delight to offer answers to ‘unanswerable’ dilemmas.
          • The amount of disposable income a client has to invest in treatment? This is admittedly an important consideration when treating complex disorders such as autoimmunity. The lab tests alone are a large expense for most individuals. But, no, this is not the determining qualification, by any means.

          No, Rachel, the two most important considerations from my point of view are the client’s attitude and attention. I sink an immense amount of time and attention into a client. And what Oriental medicine has to offer the West is beyond a Westerner’s imagination. To put out this kind of service at a sustainable level, requires reciprocation from a client. What the client pays me pays my needs, but it is not the sustaining payoff. Just as I’m suggesting to you, I do not give my attention to something or someone who is not capable of reciprocating in a deep way. I’m doing my part, and I insist that a client reciprocate with an attitude which is capable of seeing fruition from our efforts.

          Our attention is best placed on those things or that thing which lifts consciousness to new levels. Everything we encounter wants our attention, and at least 99.9% is unworthy of it.

          Our attitude shapes our experience. Yours will determine what you extract from Datis’ book and what it does for you.

          Look up, Rachel.

  5. P.s. my antibodies were tested twice a little over three months ago. The first time I was over 1200 the second time a few weeks later I was over 1400!

  6. Unfortunately its a chronic disease, and there is no cure.
    May websites/users mention that they were “cure” from Hashimotos but its highly unlikely.

    The only solution for a balanced lifestyle is a healthy diet, maybe acupuncture and chines meds, plus the medication Levothyroxin. This will improve your symptoms but an over all cure is unlikely as of now.

    I’m in the NY area, I’m getting the tests and treatments required but its a losing battle to find/reach a cure. Personally, I’m trying to have a gluten free and healthy diet, which is no easy task. On top of acupuncture and Chinese meds.

    Good luck to all with Hash’s and stay healthy…

    1. Thanks for your comment, Nels. May I offer some encouragement in the form of a very different perspective?

      A perspective is the point from which we view our universe, and from where I’m viewing, truth doesn’t reside in black and white — as in, “Unfortunately its a chronic disease, and there is no cure”. Those are black and white opinions and viewpoints which nail the coffin shut. They leave no room for areas of grey, wherein truth does reside. If we believe such words, however, they become our reality, whether they are, in fact, or not.

      For the same reason, “cure” is an illusory word which doesn’t get much use in my vocabulary. The word and the connotations it carries are part of a medical model I don’t subscribe to. It’s the conventional Western model of more black and white, frozen in time and space beliefs: patient/doctor; sick/healthy; curable/incurable; on/off; etc. Black and white, and it sets everything in stone. What happens when an individual is ‘cured’, but then “Oh, whoops, my cancer is back.”? More importantly, there is no allowance for a relatively high quality of life in the presence of a physical condition — a common reality for those experiencing real medicine.

      For me, black and white has no place in a mature medical paradigm, nor in life as a whole.

      I don’t consider Hashimoto’s a ‘disease’. In reality, it’s more of a symptom. Just the tip of an iceberg, it’s an intricate imbalance, reflecting a plethora of factors in someone’s life which are out of kilter and have been so for a very long time. If not managed correctly, for a given individual and their unique imbalances, Hashimoto’s can mark the beginning of a downward health spiral of varying severity. The wisdom of a mature medical model, in conjunction with an individual’s appropriate attitude, is what’s required to alter that course, not a drug or any other ‘cure’.

      There are individuals with Hashimoto’s who are living in balance and enjoying a very reasonable and productive life. Most of those are metaphorically looking up, not down. The quality of their life experience probably exceeds that of most individuals without Hashimoto’s.

      On the opposite end of the spectrum, there are individuals with a confirmed diagnosis of Grave’s disease who are living normal lives — with an intact thyroid.

      This post you’ve responded to, Nels, is the most visited on this site. Why is that? Is it the best or most important post I’ve written? Not even close! Here’s why: As the title suggests there are an awful lot of people with Hashimoto’s. But that’s not the only reason, is it? The real reason is that the vast majority of those individuals subscribe to the conventional model, and their beliefs and attention are focused, by cultural conditioning, on HASHIMOTO’S, DISEASE, CURE — with unwavering tunnel vision. It doesn’t occur to them that many of the answers they need reside outside the narrow angle of that focus. Ironically, some of those answers are lurking in other posts on this site. But we’re focused on HASHIMOTO’S — and as long as that’s where we’re focused, that’s where we’ll remain.

      It’s a huge cultural dilemma, Nels, and it’s why I write these posts. Thanks for visiting! One more note for the road: we create our own ‘luck’.

      [For a broader examination of this conversation, you may wish to visit “The Hashimoto’s Syndrome” on this site.]

  7. Dr. Norton,

    I have Hashimoto for more then decade, it was under control almost all the time. Now I am not doing well, I have all the symptoms, and even new ones -anemia and depression. I live in Boston. Would you recommend a doctor who may help and do except health insurance?

    Thank you.

    1. Thank you for writing, Irene.

      I empathize with your situation. Isn’t it remarkable that, in a nation which prides itself with the belief that its dominant medical paradigm is the most advanced in the world, your experience is not at all unusual?

      The short answer is that I know of no one in the Boston area who is capable of dealing with your condition, although I’m sure there must be one or two. If I were in your situation, I would try to find someone who practices Oriental medicine and has experience with Hashimoto’s and other disorders of autoimmunity. That would be a good start.

      It’s important to understand that Hashimoto’s (or anything else) does not exist in isolation. I know the western perspective believes it does, but that’s factually (and clinically) myopic. All sorts of other systems — adrenal, digestive, etc. — are as deeply out of balance as the immune system, and they’re all interrelated and co-dependent. You must find someone who understands this and is capable of diagnosing and orchestrating your treatment. Finding someone with this skill is difficult enough. Expecting them to accept insurance, which simply does not compensate them for their skill, time, and effort, may be unrealistic.

      I wish you all the best in your quest, and I regret not providing a more optimistic reply.

      Larry Horton

  8. I normally would have been open to Chinese medicine, except that I’m so thoroughly disgusted by the toxins and impurities in anything emerging from China that I would run away from any herbs from that country as fast as my Hashimoto’s-affected legs would carry me!

    How do DOM’s assure their patients of the purity of the herbs and other substances they use in treatment of a patient? Have these substances ever been tested by the FDA for purity and no contamination by the presence of heavy metals or other toxic substances?

    Anything from China is immediately suspect (for me)! And it’s a shame, because it sounds as though your system of healing is perhaps much better than ours, in principle, at least.

    1. Thanks, so much, Antonia, for this important and provocative comment! Sometimes a reader’s comment represents such a universal concern or observation that I choose to respond with an entirely new post. This is one of those times. The new post is my best attempt to thoroughly examine your concern, in love, from the most important angles I perceive. I hope it serves you and others who follow — even through the areas that may offend some readers.

      And thank you, once again, for initiating this opportunity!

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